Project ULTRA

Beyond the Buzz (episode 8) - Project Ultra 

February 13, 2025 

Erin Roesler(0:00-1:10): Good morning everyone and welcome to another episode of our monthly Beyond The Buzz brought to you by the Northern Plains UAS test site located here at The Hive in Grand Forks North Dakota. A tech accelerator for UAS businesses and operations helping foster and further UAS integration for a whole wide variety of tenants and companies here. My name is Erin Roesler. I am the deputy executive director for the northern plains uas test site and we also lead and run the Vantis program here in North Dakota. This month we are going to be talking about Project Ultra which has been in the headlines quite a bit and it's been taking up a lot of our team's time as we work on this really exciting initiative. So today I am joined by Chris Hewlett who is the Director of the Project Ultra program and we will be discussing what it, is why it's important, and what we're aiming to do with this pretty exciting project. So, Chris welcome why don't you kick off by giving a quick little intro about yourself. 

Chris Hewlett(1:10-3:41): Right, awesome thank you so much Erin really appreciate it and thanks for having me. Super excited to talk about this. So my background is 21 years Commander United States Navy retired mostly rotary Wing Aviation. Spent all my time flying helicopters and doing mostly really dumb things with helicopters off the back of ships which is what gave me all this gray hair and along the way when I had command I was the first commanding officer to integrate both manned and unmanned aerial vehicles for the purposes of what our fleet needs to do and I did that with the loral combat ship. So the three newest things in the Navy when I retired from the Navy went to work for some consulting firms to help with the process of integrating drones into our national airspace along the way became an employee with Thales for a while which is where I got integrated in with the Northern Plains test site and Grand Sky and the great folks in North Dakota and then along the way we had a great conversation with the office of the under secretary of defense which has really been leading an effort. Ultra is not new by any stretch of the imagination. It's been going on for quite some time as a coordinated effort with NASA, the Federal Aviation Administration, the FFRDC miter I see Michelle Duqet online. She was part of this process and has been a part of this process since inception. And so there was all this great work being done by AFWERX and all of these people on the team to really help with the integration strategy around unmanned arial systems in the country. At that time I was asked to leave Thales and help start up a program through Grand Sky and with the county of Grand Forks to really capitalize on the great ecosystem that Northern Plains test site and several other of the partners in the industry have created at Grand Sky and bring office of under secretary defenses program, sponsored by Senator Hoeven and his staff to Grand Sky and start working on integration, mostly of air traffic management and mostly logistics but now it's starting to move into the counter UAS realm which I'm sure we'll talk about. That's specifically where it started and how it came into being and Ultra itself stands for UAS Logistics Traffic Response and Autonomy addressing really the full integration strategy and architecture and ecosystem around getting unmanned systems into the national airspace not alone but I would say integrated and working alongside manned traffic.  

Erin Roesler(3:41-3:48): It definitely wouldn't be Aviation if we didn't throw another new acronym out there so just one more time what does ULTRA stand for?  

Chris Hewlett(3:48-3:52): UAS Logistics Traffic Response and Autonomy. 

Erin Roesler(3:52-4:16):  Yeah and thanks for that intro Chris. You mentioned you know like kind of what we're seeking to do in the traffic management airspace management realm of this project. So, other than that what else can you tell us about high level, what is Project Ultra aiming to do as part of this supporting of the office of the Under Secretary of Defense.  

Chris Hewlett(4:16-7:00): Right so from an acquisition strategy, Department of Defense has spent a tremendous amount of money and time working at solving the problem of integrating drones into the lower 48 specifically. With that in mind, there's been some great work done on the CONOPS and the technology advancements and coordination here in Washington DC where I live and certainly there in Grand Forks, but Ultra itself started off really around the testing and evaluation in an operational construct. We're beyond research now we're down to let's see if we can get integrate it and get it working in a real world environment but it started with the federal USS’s right so NASA created one and AFWERX created one so that's Freddy for NASA and Clue for AFWERX or AFRL. The idea in mind behind all of this was to create a process through the office of under Secretary of Defense that does operational test and evaluation. We started with simulations in task order one really working on integrating the federal USS’s and figuring out what were the limitations and thereby extension operable opportunities to integrate unmanned systems using the federal USS’s. The goal in mind was to create a safe sustainable and repeatable and scalable process for delivering items from one Airbase to another Air Base so to speak. When we got into task order 2 which started just a few months ago we used all the simulation data and the modeling data that the Northern Plains test site had provided for us to validate the down select process for a drone and at the end of this year's summer so towards the end of July time frame, we're going to be flying 10 roundtrip logistics deliveries to Cavalier space force station from Grand Forks Air Force Base using one of the Navy's drones called Skyways to deliver just under 50lbs over 50 nautical miles to and from Cavalier space force station. There's even some discussions around doing some medical supply delivery like some potentially blood transportation which still has to be worked out with the Federal Aviation Administration because technically it's a Hazmat so we have some homework to do but there's aspirations there's goals there's people really wanting to stretch their legs and trying to create this integrated process of using drones for logistics especially for the military. 

Erin Roesler(7:00-8:00): Yeah and spot on. I always joke you that if the test site program, right, it was stood up to help integrate the drones or UAS into the national aerospace. The test site program is also 11 years old so by some you know beliefs we should be done by now. But, you and I know we are far from being done there's so much work in this space and you talked about so many different complexities that we have in this. It's not just you know the drone and the aircraft but it is the procedures by which you manage the airspace, it is the other entities that help support those longer more complex missions so USS you know the service providers that add in and enhance the complex operations as well as a whole host of other entities as well. I want to go back though just real briefly because you mentioned a couple different task orders so project Ultra is an IDIQ right so it's this master agreement that's for five years right? 

Chris Hewlett(8:00-9:28): Yes okay so and thanks for highlighting that because I glossed over that so it is an IDIQ if we don't know what that it's indefinite delivery and definite quality with the federal government and it is a five-year contract. To my knowledge this is one of the first ones that I'm aware of that's between a county because it's Grand Forks County that is the prime and the federal government. So yes and it's designed to set us up with task orders, we started task order one literally about nine months ago it's fairly new and we it was a short sprint mostly simulation that was meant to build onto task order 2 which is the list logistics delivery process that I mentioned going to Cavalier space force station so yes there is a tremendous amount of interest right now in continuing what tremendous work has been done in the past by Northern Plains test site, NASA, AFWERX, Miter, everybody involved in the process is still involved in the process we just expanded the team to bring in new and emerging technologies that we think are beyond a certain technical readiness level that are at a higher maturation to be able to be integrated into the national airspace and therefore create a better operational test environment for the DOD to take a look at technologies that are ready to be fielded and disseminated to base commanders and various different people throughout the military in the lower 48.  

Erin Roesler(9:28-11:00): Yeah perfect so task order one kicked off, like you said nine months ago and now we're on task order two. I think saying it's a sprint has been an understatement I think everyone is running at some pretty big lightning speeds to consider what we're trying to accomplish in a very short period of time because you mentioned that flight and maybe let's talk about that. The flight between the Grand Forks Air Force Base and Cavalier Air Station, it's not just airport to airport though right we're taking off from a controlled airspace environment an airspace environment that's almost like a joint use airspace where it is civilian and military traffic so add that complexity in there then we're transitioning up over 50 nautical miles plus right to another location which is a military installation but does not have an air traffic control facility, is not a controlled airport or controlled airspace environment so essentially a controlled airspace environment transitioning in route to an off airport landing site and then trying to transition back all under positive aircraft control and that whole mission. That's a whole lot of new when we're talking about a flight mission like that so how I mean where does the team even start to solve that problem. 

Chris Hewlett(11:00-14:25): Right so aspirational right you could say that what we're trying to do is definitely putting an exclamation point on what has been accomplished to date. So we started with simulation and modeling right and also awareness and not community outreach. I mean I think that has a place right there's no reason for not doing that. We are doing that as well but I'm talking about awareness amongst the inter-agency making sure that the Federal Aviation Administration is completely up to speed and agrees on our process. I think it's probably understated but the reality of the circumstances we would not be able to do any of this if it wasn't for the relationship that the Northern Plains Test Site has as the lead agency in this process for us for the state of North Dakota in working with the Federal Aviation Administration. I mean you just you can't get this done so there's a lot of people when I talk to them to your point of, man that's aspirational I can't believe you're doing that and why is it happening in North Dakota and I said well you know I get it there are seven FAA test sites and I'm not taking anything away from any of the other test sites but when it comes to the ecosystem that North Dakota has the spareness of the population which does help especially when you're flying new missions to various different places the friendliness that they have with both the governor, the National Guard, and the regular services military there and then the ecosystem of politicians that work in support of what we're doing. It's really just a unicorn it doesn't really exist anywhere else that I've seen so this makes it a tremendous leg up for us to be able to do exactly what you said, achieve a goal that most people in the country would say that's a little bit too fa,r it's a little bit too much and ironically you get folks from the FAA folks from NASA stepping in and going I can see where you're going I can see how this could work and really what we're more interested in in achieving is the data. Right because this is going to be a data driven solution as we start getting to the point where we truly integrate drones and I use that term ubiquitously but unmanned systems or autonomous systems however you want to autonomous flight decks. However you want to determine the name should be when we start integrating, this truly into the national airspace system there's going to have to be some serious metrics that are associated with this that give everybody the confidence that these things are not going to cause severe problems. I mean look at the tragedy that happened here in Washington DC just a short time ago right and that was with manned aircraft so we have to be very very methodical, very intentional in in the way we do things and the team that we have assembled mostly your team there at the Northern Plains test site has done a phenomenal job of tabulating data running through the tests. I mean these flights are not just happening right we're talking hundreds and hundreds of simulation events that have gone into getting the stuff that we need to provide the safety case not only for the Northern Plains test site because you guys are assuming some of the risk but for the state for the county and for the federal government to ensure that we can do this process. 

Erin Roesler(14:25-15:13): Yeah perfect and the mission like you said aspirational in these first task orders here but you hit it a little bit but the goal is really to build a blueprint right. That this is a flight that doesn't just happen here in North Dakota and in particular between Grand Forks airport space and Cavalier space force station but is a model because of the robustness of the data and those metrics that could be applied at countless other areas across the country that really help enable and equip our military to do you know these next Generation missions and leverage these very capable you know technologies to really enhance the services that they bring to our country.  

Chris Hewlett(15:13-15:48): Correct and I think aspirationally the Department of Defense, specifically office of under secretary of defense for Acquisitions has a goal in mind that at the end of the day when we stop testing and evaluating at some point and start integrating that there's some type of Leave Behind capability that benefits the soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Guardians for our military that they can replicate and put in and scale to other locations to ease the burden of an already like overburdened military.  

Erin Roesler(15:48-16:12): Bingo yeah so we talked about where and why is this important for North Dakota and you've mentioned a few of the other participants that we have on this but I want to give us a moment to like really talk about who's all involved in this because it's aspirational but we're coming in with some pretty big Heavy Hitters to help us achieve this so you want to go through and list who's all helping and working on Project Ultra.  

Chris Hewlett(16:12-18:52): Sure. Right so obviously we brought the federal USS systems in that was a requirement and I thought it was a fantastic idea that office of under Secretary of Defense just flowed from the work that they were doing already with them so AFRL and AFWERX are obviously involved in the process and have brought clue in and ax Enterprises and that whole team of amazing professionals NASA has their AIMS division which works xtm their client and that's the Freddy's system and that whole I mean anytime you can have NASA in the room is amazing we've been working with miter the ffrdc and they've been amazing help. Obviously the Northern Plains test site we can't get anything done without the Northern Plains test site so you and Trevor have been magnanimous in helping us form the team but it has been unbelievable working with your team and the way we have done things Grand Sky obviously I'm subcontracted to them but Tom Sawyer and his team amazing support. We're working with the 319th wing both the Operational Support Squadron and the frequency and Spectrum management shops I mean everything has to be coordinated the right way the drone that we've down selected to is skyways. They're out of Austin Texas amazing company most of their individuals who are working in their flight test shop are former Naval aviators or Marine Corps aviators so it's easy to have a conversation with them. We're working with PMA 263 and Naval Aviation Warfare Development Center and the team out of dalren who owns the skyways drones. There's agility Prime is involved in it because they have some stake in the skyways sbirs that we're working with SIMULI is a Computing company that handles all of our software's for the airspace integration services that we provide to the federal USS’s. The Asus core which is run out of Huntsville Alabama so literally we're bringing in people from all over the country. Thales is involved into a small role doing airspace characterizations for us to take the digital Aviation surveillance radar system out of Grand Forks Air Force Base and let us know just exactly what we should be able to see as part of our safety case and then obviously the Federal Aviation Administration is right along there for the ride so yeah when you take a look at a team like that that's a lot of Firepower to accomplish this mission. 

Erin Roesler(18:52-19:15): Yeah which is why we can probably hold to the robust timelines that we've had thus far so and we talked a little bit about how what we've done in the last nine months and you previewed what we're going to you work on in the next couple months here before the end of summer but what's next for this project what's on horizon beyond you know July. 

Chris Hewlett(19:15-20:51): Yeah I think I mentioned it to our program sponsor and a lot of people when I was here in Washington DC at a couple meetings a few weeks ago I said it would be politically insensitive to not mention the words counter UAS I understand that comes with a lot of baggage and a lot of people think about that as an in theater situation that we need to protect troops in theater but I think now we're all starting to see what's evolved with the war in Ukraine what's been going on for literally years between the Houthi rebels and the Saudis that unmanned aerial systems in the wrong hands can have some devastating effects. So, I think collectively with the new Administration there's a push towards more defensive strategy for the United States of America and in that small portion of it not talking about Hypersonic missiles or anything else like that is a is a situation of counter unmanned aerial systems, counter small unmanned aerial systems they're very different methodologies so it's hard to bracket everything into one counter UAS bucket but our guidance has been that the new task order that we're working on securing for office of under secretary defense is going to be solely focused on counter UAS and specifically aligned to the air traffic management detection and identification process for counter uas because I don't want people to think that North Dakota is going to become some kind of counter uas shooting grounds because that's not what we're looking at. Right now what we're looking at is making sure that we can identify everybody in the airspace and properly adjudicate it.  

Erin Roesler(20:51-21:54): Yeah Bingo and you're right like it's not just an in theater type situation and what would you always say is if we want to continue to integrate drones to NAS and let the good guys do what the good guys want to do with drones we have to make sure that the bad guys can't do the bad guy things right and in the states that's still just oh let's look at New Jersey being in the headlines. Even if it wasn't anyone with nefarious intent there was some aircraft, drones or others that were in the sky that we didn't really know or anticipate to be there and if we really want to integrate into the NAS we got to make sure that we're we really understanding what is happening within our airspace. I think again the counter EOS perspective is a piece that it gets a really big negative you know militaristic wartime connotation for it but you and I know it's just about knowing who's doing what in the aerospace so we can be much more educated and informed when we're making decisions on getting drones integrated the NAS.  

Chris Hewlett(21:54-22:55): Yeah I mean I think 60 to 70% of the unintended consequences of allowing drones into our airspace is that every now and then there's somebody who has no idea what they're doing with their drone and it wanders into an area that it probably shouldn't be in. There's nothing no malintent associated with that it's just oops I'm sorry but it still needs to be dealt with right and it's still an issue and it's certainly an issue for base commanders it's certainly an issue for security forces and then how do those entities those base commanders those Security Forces use drones for a benefit when they're trying so desperately to keep drones off the base. So it's become a real chicken or the egg or rabbit, Turtle take your pick of dichotomies that exist out there but that's where the military is seriously scratching their heads trying to prevent drones that shouldn't be on base and allow drones that should be on base to do the things they need to do. 

Erin Roesler(22:55-23:23): Exactly perfect well I have one more question for you then I will open it up to if there's anyone online or we have a couple people in the room here in person if they do have any questions for us the last question first is we talked about all the big things that this project wants to accomplish is working on the visions and aspirations but what are you most excited about and want to see as a huge win in success to come out of this program.  

Chris Hewlett(23:23-24:33): Yeah no I'm most excited about actually being able to tell a base commander that I can give him absolute assurance that he knows that there's exactly what's in his airspace and therefore can make a decision having been in command I know how difficult it is when all of a sudden somebody looks at you and says hey you've got to make a decision it's go time especially if it involves and I use this term because it's a military term and I'm not suggesting that you know this is what's going to happen but if it involves a killchain. Okay if it involves a situation where you're telling somebody in one of your security forces or one of your details to do something about that. It is very difficult to make that decision without having all of the right information. I am looking forward to giving my fellow commanders the opportunity to feel better about the decision that they're about ready to make with regards to dealing with a drone that probably shouldn't be there or just looking at everybody saying I think that one's okay we're all right everything's okay. Giving them that kind of confidence and assurance I think is the thing that makes me the most excited. 

Erin Roesler(24:33-24:59): Yeah I think more information all around as much as we spend our time doing education and an Outreach it's information is critical and we're talking about integrating drones with NAS so again thank you for your time but I'll open up anyone questions online or here in the room for Chris for myself on Project Ultra. 

Victor Meza(24:59-25:17): Chris you talked very military focused. Can you kind of break it down a little bit for those that aren't military or Aviation specific like why is this project so important.  

Chris Hewlett(25:17-27:07): This project is so important because it's you're right it's military focused right but if you think about some of the inventions and integration of technology that has happened that is commonplace for us in our country or around the world. A lot of that started in the US military or in foreign militaries was developed out of need and then morphed into a civilian application and there are thousands of examples right so I think this is critical to us because again the Department of Defense from necessity is leading the charge on integration of unmanned systems not because they want to force the Federal Aviation administration's hand in doing so but because they have a definite need to take care of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, and guardians that protect us on a daily basis through the benefit of this new technology. The reality is it will in turn create an ancillary benefit for the Federal Aviation Administration and the civilians in our country who will benefit from the technology integration and the utilization of unmanned systems that will better everybody's lives. Think about Rural and remote people who have little to no access to goods and supplies being delivered things by unmanned systems on a more regular basis, think about people who need medical supplies and have a very hard time because they're disenfranchised getting those medical supplies. These are real tangible benefits that people in this country will immediately see once the data is there to help the Federal Aviation Administration Implement policy, implement change, and implement the drones in the areas that we need them. 

Erin Roesler(27:07-27:36): I think that segways nicely into the question that we have in the chat too from Michelle Decett. So I see project Ultra evolving into the Nexus between integration and security via this next focus on detection and identification and that value conveying into general aviation VFR tracking and identification challenges with which we've been dealing with for years. Any thoughts on expanding to in the future to include General Aviation. 

Chris Hewlett(27:36-28:44): Absolutely I mean this is one of those programs that I think benefits everybody with the more things that we can start bringing in. That's why our airspace integration services is an open-ended architecture that allows people to come in and bolt in doesn't matter whether it's a UAS operator, supplemental service provider, USS, just data right it's an exchange of data and an aggregation of information to provide people with the assurance that where they're navigating and what they're navigating with is not going to get into any trouble in the airspace. That's what the goal is and that's going to open the aperture up to the civilian sector to allow for all kinds of integration of technology. There will be a moment where the DOD will do what the DOD always does and it'll take its little tiny toy and make a DOD Centric side of it and take it over here and it won't be connected to the civilian network but that doesn't mean to Michelle's point that we shouldn't continue in that civilian realm and really create the opportunities the same way we've done with all other technologies that we've integrated post DOD utilization. 

Erin Roesler(28:44-30:02): I'll only add I think we're already doing that in some respects. We talked about the mission between Grand Forks Air Force Space and the Cavalier Space Force Station. If we had been thinking about this as a DOD solution only the easy button would have been to leverage you know restricted airspace or a TFR to accomplish those mission sets, but we're doing this without that right we're aiming to do this as an integrated civilian operation for the reason of the scalability aspects go beyond just other DOD installations and other military applications but directly into civilian and general aviation as well. It's not too far of a leap to go okay, if we figure out the traffic management procedures for the FAA that apply in this scenario in particular going from an airport environment to a non-airport environment which doesn't happen that often in our airspace structure to date. If we can figure out the routine procedures around operations, that could have some really great implications into this next generation of new entrance a vehicles right that would then be directly applicable to their flights as well.  

Chris Hewlett(30:02-31:00): Yeah and I will, that your spot on and I will echo what Michelle has always said which is from the DOD side of the house clue is really coming along very quickly and how quickly could it be you know fielded and spread out throughout the military system and how does that connect to the civilian system to allow off-base traffic to come on-base traffic well guess what clue is doing really well the other side of the house is what North Dakota already has which is the Vantis program right. So now we've got to start talking about what it looks like to merge the civilian and the military operations and then create that seamless architecture to allow the flow of traffic on and off bases and to and from communities. Once you get to that point, it then becomes a cooperative problem or a cooperative architecture that everybody's benefiting from so I think you're spot-on in saying what you said and Michelle is spot-on and asking that question it should definitely not stay military. It should branch out into the civilian sector as well.  

Erin Roesler(31:00-31:02): Exactly other question. 

Ryan Steenerson(31:02-31:43): Yeah Chris, Erin fantastic information Ryan Steenerson here with Ideal Aerosmith Chris. You touched on a point that a lot of people don't touch on is the engagement of those multiple agencies and our ecosystem here that we've developed in North Dakota is fantastic. We all have a lot of connections that overlap, however we have our own different perspectives. When you narrow that down which three agencies or entities do you believe need the most education to help continue the success of the culture program the test site in the state of North Dakota. 

Chris Hewlett(31:43-31:52): Well that's a great question Ryan. Okay so I believe the Federal Aviation Administration takes the lead on a lot of things.  

Ryan Steenerson(31:52-31:54):  Lot of stone pipes got to narrow down Chris.  

Chris Hewlett(31:54-34:26): Oh no that's what I was getting ready to say. I there are so many agencies within FAA and I can tell you that after task order one and task order two the interest and education level that the Federal Aviation Administration has demonstrated in getting spun up and fully up to speed with Project Ultra through the Northern Plains Test Site and working in collaboration with the Department of Defense is absolutely mind-boggling fast for FAA. Literally, that is the thing that has impressed me the most is how much FAA has leaned into this process where traditionally their modus operandi has been to kind of throw an anchor out and slow things down. Rightfully so because their whole goal is safety. Landings have to equal takeoffs. This has been amazing to work in partnership with the Federal Aviation Administration especially Jeffrey Vincent and his team and the AUS the integration shop. But I also think it's also the working groups here in Washington DC spearheaded by office of under secretary defense for acquisitions and sustainment that works with the Federal Aviation Administration, works with Department of Homeland Security, works with people that you would never think of when you're talking about aviation like Department of energy and Department of Justice because they all get a vote in this, the Federal Communications side of the house. These are all the people here in Washington DC that FAA and DOD those two agencies have really been in partnership leading the way and working in close collaboration with the FFRDC’s and all the research institutes up and down or throughout the country to make sure that they're getting the data that they need to make the decisions to allow us to do the things that we're doing now in the operations and test environment to get them answers so that they can start acquiring systems and actually proliferating them throughout the US into various different DOD facilities. Some of this is already being done right AFWERXS is not just sitting back waiting for us to do things. NAVair is not sitting back waiting for us to do things. Same thing with the Marine Corps and the Army but to me I don't know that I can name three agencies Ryan but I would say the two agencies that I think are leaning in the most to making sure that there's a common operating picture and a working group that is effective is the Department of Defense and the Federal Aviation Administration.  

Erin Roesler(34:26-34:33): Other questions?  

Ryan Steenerson(34:33-34:34): No? Great answer thank you.  

Erin Roesler(34:34-35:22): Okay well I think that is a wrap for this week. Chris thank you again for joining me this month. For those that joined us online and in person here thank you for attending a reminder that we hold these monthly so you're welcome to join us again next month. I don't think we have the topic solidified yet but I'm sure we'll come up with something great so thank you once again for tuning in for Beyond The Buzz again my name is Erin Roesler. I really appreciate your time today Chris and to the audience for joining in. With that we'll sign off for now and we'll see you next month on Beyond The Buzz