North Dakota Ecosystem

Beyond the Buzz (episode 7) - North Dakota UAS Ecosystem 

January 21, 202534m 15s 

Erin Roesler: Good morning. For those online, welcome to the Northern Plains UAS Test Site monthly webinar, Beyond the Buzz. This month we’re going to be talking all about the North Dakota UAS ecosystem, discussing the different private, commercial, public activities and entities, and all the different things that are happening in UAS. 

My name is Erin Roesler. I am the deputy executive director for the Northern Plains UAS Test Site. So again, a warm welcome to those joining online as well as those of us here in person today at The Hive here in Grand Forks, North Dakota. 

This month I’m joined by Matt Dunlevy, who is the president and CEO of the UAS Council. We’re happy to have him on board today to really discuss, from a different perspective, all about the UAS ecosystem in North Dakota. 

Matt, I’m going to hand it over to you real quick here. Introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the UAS Council. 

Matt Dunlevy: Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me here today, Aaron. It’s a pleasure to be on the show. I’ve been seeing some of the inaugural episodes of Beyond the Buzz, and just having been a keen observer of the Northern Plains UAS Test Site for the last 10 years here in Grand Forks, I think it’s a great initiative. 

It’s one of the indications of the maturity of the UAS sector that we see these podcasts, and the maturity of the UAS ecosystem that we have here in North Dakota. I would also say that the North Dakota UAS Council and the palpable moment that we have here growing as the state’s UAS trade group is another key indicator of what we’ve got here regarding UAS in the state of North Dakota. 

My background is as a UAS entrepreneur. Back in the days of 333, I was the first startup to get the Section 333 exemption, so I’ve been flying for commercial purposes as long as anybody has in the state of North Dakota. It was purely coincidental that we started back then and that North Dakota had this incredible UAS ecosystem. We would have probably found our way to it anyway just because we had this passion for aviation, and when we’re looking at industry, we can see the prevailing winds of business were in the direction of uncrewed aircraft systems. 

I’ve been doing it for a long time, overseeing thousands of successful UAS missions, and started a few different UAS ventures. I taught UAS courses at the University of North Dakota for the last 10 years, and a lot of that was again a convergence into one of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that the state of North Dakota didn’t yet quite have. 

So that’s a little bit of my background. The genesis of the North Dakota UAS Council was when a couple of UAS experts and I were approached by members of the North Dakota legislature saying, “Hey, we need a trade group. We need a voice for UAS policy in addition to UAS industry advocacy for the state.” 

About three years ago, we had that conversation, and we’ve been growing and developing the UAS Council ever since. Our mission is to be the champions for UAS in the state of North Dakota and to preach this message of UAS unity and bring the UAS ecosystem together so that we’re all singing from the same sheet of music. 

Erin Roesler: I think, for those who are not aware, we are in legislative session right now as a state. Every two years we go through this cycle, and entities like the Northern Plains UAS Test Site, which is a public entity, and also the private entities — for legislators who are not as familiar with UAS in their day-to-day life — can have a lot to keep up on. We have this wonderful citizen-legislator group in the state of North Dakota. 

So for them to keep up on all the topics and the cutting-edge work, it’s a lot to take on. I think figuring out who’s who in this space, who’s doing what, and what’s going on in the state is really important. 

You mentioned 333 exemptions, and that’s going to go over a lot of that audience. We’ve seen firsthand where the role of the Council has really played a critical element in providing that fact sheet of who’s who, what are they doing, and what’s going on in the state, and why it’s important as well. 

Matt Dunlevy: In some respect, it also helps put it into layperson’s terms. As people are seeing the UAS ecosystem and jumping in headfirst, they’re seeing the fast evolution of the technologies and the convergence of technologies, and keeping up with that UAS news is a full-time job in and of itself. 

Keeping up with UAS legislative priorities, UAS legislation, and the different dynamics at the legislature as they pertain to UAS is also kind of a full-time job in and of itself. We’re the translators. We’re the champions, and we keep tabs on what’s going on and help connect things so other people have a soft landing and don’t have to spend as much time doing it themselves. 

We’ve already started talking about this month’s topic on the North Dakota UAS ecosystem, and I’ll set the stage by saying we hear the word “ecosystem” a lot. My feeling is that in some senses it’s not a great word to use because it gets disregarded. A lot of people leverage that as a buzzword. 

But there is an element of why we continue to use ecosystem in North Dakota, and I have my opinions why. I want to hear yours first. Why do we continue to use the word “ecosystem” to describe North Dakota UAS? If someone asked you — which I get asked a lot — how would you describe the North Dakota UAS ecosystem? 

Matt Dunlevy: Well, it’s a great question, and the nomenclature in UAS is difficult to keep up with as well. The fact of the matter is that we in the UAS industry aren’t always good at naming things. You’ve got a remote pilot and a drone plane. You’ve got Pixhawk, PX4, and Pix4D. What the heck are all of these things that sound the same? 

And then you’ve got the term “ecosystem.” If we conceptualize the UAS ecosystem, you’ve got the fertile ground that is the test site, and then Grand Sky, and then you’ve got this company over here that is the frog in the ecosystem. Then you have maybe the predators in the ecosystem and things like that that are going to gobble up that little frog. 

Exactly. We see this for better or for worse a lot, and maybe so much so that the term “ecosystem” is overused. There are a lot of buzzwords too, synonymous with the UAS sector or UAS industry, synonymous with the UAS sphere. I’ve heard these all used frequently. 

Personally, my favorite way to describe it, and I do believe that people jumping into the UAS ecosystem in North Dakota, or the UAS cluster anywhere, is the best way to conceptualize what it is that we’re doing through the lens of the term “frontier.” I think that applies to the state of North Dakota, which was a frontier state. It applies to what we’re doing as settlers on the frontier, because a lot of these companies are new and underdeveloped, and then we have these big behemoths that have been here for a long time, just like on the American frontier. 

Frederick Jackson Turner wrote the Frontier Thesis about how it was a process versus a place, and we’re a place that is a central node of UAS development. But the fact is that the entire UAS frontier is really a process. I would say the test site, Vantis, and the state of North Dakota are a big part of that because we’re the ones directing where that process is and where it goes in the future, more than perhaps anywhere else. 

Erin Roesler: I’d have to say ecosystem, being this environment where you see so many UAS activities — large, small, government, private — all existing simultaneously, really does embrace that ecosystem. But the other half of that question is that ecosystem exists elsewhere in the United States, so what really, no baloney here, makes North Dakota unique and our claim to our UAS ecosystem? 

Matt Dunlevy: I think the North Dakota UAS ecosystem, first off, is not baloney. You see the critical mass here in a more definable sense, and you can articulate it better here than elsewhere. One way to say it is that we have maybe every piece of the jigsaw puzzle of drone success, better or more so than elsewhere. 

You’ve got every different type of UAS entity that has sprung up here, and you’ve got those big UAS manufacturers like General Atomics setting up out at Grand Sky. You’ve got Grand Sky, which is the only one of its kind in the country as a UAS business park. You’ve got this super UAS-friendly legislature and UAS population. A lot of it, I think, goes to the North Dakota character too. 

It’s the same reason why we have one of the largest — I think we have the largest — uncrewed aircraft training fleet in the world at the University of North Dakota’s School of Aerospace Sciences. It’s the same reason why John in the 1970s and the 1960s was working on his thesis about why the state of North Dakota is a fertile ground for aviation. We’ve got four full seasons. We’ve got uncongested airspace. We don’t have too many congested areas on the ground either. 

It’s the perfect place to practice how we play. 

Erin Roesler: It’s always been one of those hard questions for me to answer: what really makes North Dakota unique? And you hit on a little bit of it. My answer has always been the people. In a lot of states, the seven degrees of separation holds true. In North Dakota, it’s one degree of separation. 

We heard our new governor, Kelly Armstrong, give his first State of the State address and talk about his own personal experience of when he was in the predicament and his wife needed help. They ended up in Rugby, North Dakota, and someone came to her aid at a gas station in the middle of nowhere because it was her friend’s brother’s accountant who came to help. 

That type of connectivity works so well in our favor with UAS, and when we talk about the legislature being in session, we’re texting these legislators, we’re texting the other companies, and getting their opinions and testimony. We don’t have to work as hard because we have low population here, which is working in our favor in this instance. 

I think if there was anything that makes us unique, it is that accessibility to other players in the UAS space that I just don’t think happens the same way in other ecosystems. 

Erin Roesler: This ecosystem that North Dakota has — you talked about the pond and the frog and the big animal that comes in — that’s a very natural view of things. So did this North Dakota ecosystem happen naturally, or was it something else? 

Matt Dunlevy: That’s a great question. It goes back, I think, again, to the frontier and to your point about it being the people and the North Dakota character. The frontier developed naturally. You had farm by farm, cultivating the land, and then all of a sudden you’ve got the railroad going through. 

You’ve got this radar network that allows us to operate and transport and move and create in new ways. At the end of the day, everyone sees that you connected the coasts, and it was almost like a cultural event, just the same way that Vantis could be. I think it was natural, and as people started seeing and spending time on this cluster, they saw ways to jumpstart and accelerate how exactly we are going to proceed. 

That’s again in the North Dakota character. We’re definitely forward thinkers in North Dakota. We’re accepting of new technology. Drones are a perfect example of that. The way that we double down on this ecosystem we have is to continue to develop, stick to our knitting, and play to our strength. Vantis is the huge crown jewel of that. 

Erin Roesler: So you brought up Vantis, and obviously I’m going to talk about the test site a little bit here, but I do want your perspective on this as well. It’s very, your history in UAS is a different take than my own. I have been, you know, from the government and here to help for quite a number of years now, first with the University of North Dakota and now with the Northern Plains UAS Test Site. 

I was in that kind of public servant role when the test site program in North Dakota was stood up, and I remember those conversations about why North Dakota would pursue becoming one of these seven federally mandated test sites. Great, but it comes with zero dollars attached. 

I remember discussing this in depth: North Dakota was pursuing this opportunity at the federal level, but also investing state dollars to support the test site program because they looked at the test site as an essential governmental function to enhance the economic diversity in the state of North Dakota. 

It was at a time when oil and ag, our biggest commodities, were hitting a low, and that was directly affecting the financial stability of the state. So this was looked at as a strategic investment to diversify the known economy in North Dakota into technology, and in particular leveraging our rich aviation history into this new entrant: UAS. 

So we went after this opportunity, we won, and we became the first test site, the first operational test site, and then there’s a whole slew of other firsts that come after that point. Really, it all goes back to investing in the state, or investing in the Northern Plains Test Site, as an investment in the state of North Dakota’s economic diversity. 

Every year, every two years, again, as we go to the legislature, we’re talking about that and talking about the importance and talking about how we’ve brought all this indirect value, as well as helping at the federal level integrate UAS into the national airspace, holding webinars like this and helping answer questions like this. This is what we feel is our role as public servants in this space. 

That said, the role you had at that time when the test site program was set up was very different. From your perspective, why did North Dakota pursue becoming a test site, and how has the test site been a benefit back to the state of North Dakota? 

Matt Dunlevy: In a plethora of ways, both direct and indirect. I don’t think there are a lot of companies, including many of the ones that I founded, that would have survived and flourished as they have in the state of North Dakota without the test site. 

It’s always a great place to go for the education when it comes to UAS. The term ROI is being thrown around a lot more frequently now. Going back to your point about it being an investment in North Dakota’s diversity, the diversity of our economy, it was an investment in our future too. 

In many ways, investing in UAS is a glue between our top two industries and economies in the state of North Dakota. It’s a way to glue them to each other and improve them. Agriculture and energy — the same uncrewed aircraft used in ag can be used in the world of oil and gas as well. It’s a new industry, and it is revolutionizing potentially some of the major components of our two already huge economies. 

Similarly, there’s a two-pronged way to look at the ROI: what ROI is the state seeing back from investment in the test site and Vantis, and what ROI are companies seeing using these technologies? Vantis helps progress. That would be like the private investors: what ROI are the investors seeing in investing in those companies, and what ROI are the companies seeing investing in technologies and methodologies made available by the test site that you just don’t see anywhere else? 

I would start with ROI in terms of something that we saw. To your question, we saw that this would happen, and we had faith. It was a leap of faith in many ways, and it’s been a self-fulfilling prophecy based on the hard work that everyone at the test site and in the North Dakota UAS sphere has done. 

We’re almost at the punctuation mark for the scientific ROI, but we’re also close to some of the science in terms of the figures. For every dollar the state has invested into the UAS ecosystem here, we have seen four times the value directly from the test site. Every dollar that goes into the UAS ecosystem at large can generate 10 times the value. So whether it’s in the test site or not, it’s a soft four times in my opinion. 

You see job creation as a 10x as well. The study projecting UAS jobs created in North Dakota since 2013 has been outpaced on a 10-to-1 basis. So you see the job creation. We knew this was going to happen, and now we’re able to start throwing out the figures with proof behind them. 

Erin Roesler: We didn’t maybe do that on the front end, and I look back to some of those early economic studies that came out, like ANSI and other publishing agencies, that projected some of this economic impact. A lot of people actually point to that and go, “Well, that didn’t come true.” 

Well, it didn’t come true yet, I would say. But that does have us look more toward the future. I mentioned the number of firsts that North Dakota has had. I’ve had a lot of conversations lately that it’s costly to be first. You get first-mover advantage, but it’s costly to be first. 

We have a lot of firsts in our history, but as we look to the future, what do we really see? You know, the collaboration of entities within the North Dakota ecosystem, collaborations with the test site and the UAS Council — how are we going to continue to prepare to address future challenges, maybe such as a M and new proposed rulemaking, so that we can continue to meet the demands of the UAS industry? 

Matt Dunlevy: AM is a perfect example of that, and I don’t have the answers. We can look into the crystal ball. What I will say is that I am that much more comfortable that it is going to go well for North Dakota, and first for North Dakota, most likely because of Vantis, the test site, and directly the test site. 

I think Vantis is a perfect spot for AM testing, and the subject matter experts — sometimes I like to refer to them as the Oracle of drones. I don’t know about that at the test site. They’re the ones being humble. Honestly, our team is brilliant, so maybe that is a proper assessment. 

That is the North Dakota character in UAS right there. Sometimes, and that’s the point of the council, we want to make sure that we get on the same message. Sometimes we are humble as UAS, but we also have to tout our strengths, and that’s why we love working with the test site. That’s why we love this UAS ecosystem. 

So the big future challenge, I think, is going to be AM and also developing BVLOS at scale. Both of those I think are going to be done first, and we’re going to realize a lot of the fruits of these labors as long as we just keep moving in the same direction. It’s really going to develop here first and best. 

Erin Roesler: We can’t stop being first, is what you’re saying. 

Matt Dunlevy: We can’t stop being first. We can’t stop being the best. We can’t stop being a coordinated force. 

Erin Roesler: That’s very true. We do have a number of people here in the room today, and we have a number of people online. If anyone else has additional questions to ask us, we’re happy to take those now. 

I have just a couple more questions to wrap us up, but I’ll pause for questions in the room. 

Audience member: Hi, I have a question. One of the aspects that was well covered was the culture, work ethic, and commitment that North Dakota has shown to reach the government and move things forward. What I don’t feel was emphasized is the “helping your neighbor” aspect, the collaboration and work ethic that North Dakota as a culture has, and how we’ve expanded that to the UAS industry within the nation and even internationally. Could you talk a little on that and the influence that helping our neighbors, collaborating, and driving forward within the UAS industry is? 

Erin Roesler: Sure. Just in case those online couldn’t hear, you’re talking about how we talked a lot about the state, which, okay, fine, we like to talk about ourselves here, but what has North Dakota done to really help those other states, our neighbors, and others? 

I’ll say from the test site perspective first: it’s not even just the test site. So many entities in the North Dakota ecosystem are doing things that bring lessons learned and information back up to the federal level, whether it’s to influence rulemaking, standards, and policy development, or to share hard lessons learned because we want to further development in other states. 

I think it’s the concept of all ships rising together. North Dakota has zero interest in developing bespoke systems and solutions that only work here, because the reality is if I’m a drone operator and I want to do a BVLOS mission set, and I can only get to that border and can’t cross that border seamlessly, that completely defeats my use case. That’s why aviation took off in the first place: because it made connectivity by air so attractive a hundred years ago. 

UAS is at that same point in its history where it’s got to find ways to cross those borders. State boundaries don’t go into the sky, essentially, and that’s for a very intentional reason. UAS really needs to have that approach. 

So, Ryan, and Ideal Aerosmith, you know this firsthand — all the different collaborations and conversations occurring at the state-to-state level and at the federal level are hugely important, and you’re right: we didn’t talk about those probably enough. 

Matt Dunlevy: I’m glad Ryan asked that question. I see him sitting there with the Ideal Aerosmith shirt on. Ideal Aerosmith is kind of one of the answers to that question. They’re an absolute cornerstone as to why the UAS Council is so successful with this moment that we have. 

As far as the ecosystem goes, if you’re building a house on some of this fertile land by the pond, one of the cornerstones of that house is Ideal Aerosmith. As we’re building that, I think it’s not just this full-court press that we’re running in the marketing component of our ecosystem and the big brands that we have. 

The huge successes we have with Ideal Aerosmith, from the Council and as a state, are helping. We’re starting to see the people are coming to us now. Having this leadership, like what you’ve seen at Ideal Aerosmith, is a confidence builder in the people ancillary to that company: look what we’ve got here and look how long they’ve been here. Look at the new things they’re doing. Look at the love they get from our congressional delegation, like Senator Hovind. There’s got to be something there if Hovind’s there. 

So I see the FAA, the DoD, and a whole bunch of different major entities coming to us now instead of us always having to go and find it and bring it back to the ecosystem. I would say it’s a great company to help in that situation. Ideal Aerosmith really helps us expand our reach and our gravity. 

Audience member: Ryan, you said you had more questions. Is that it for today? Any other questions online or in person here? I’ll close with one final question. Matt, what’s the number one question you hear either regarding or about the North Dakota ecosystem? 

Matt Dunlevy: It’s funny because oftentimes, you know, to Ryan’s question, when we have to go out there and bring things back, I hear, “Oh, you’re from North Dakota. How’s Mount Rushmore?” And, you know, that’s in South Dakota. Then they say something like, “Well, we hear there’s this incredible UAS initiative going on in the state of North Dakota.” 

Many times they know more about what’s going on here with UAS than they know about the state’s existence. So the next question is usually, “How the heck do they have it going on in North Dakota like this, of all places?” 

I always point to the successes and the firsts we’ve got, the track record we’ve got, the safety record we have in the air with UAS, the frontier analogy, and the North Dakota character. We’re always, because we’re so tight-knit, working well together. North Dakotans are generally an intelligent group, and we can see the future of this. 

I also think we’re kind of thrifty in the way that we spend appropriations and in the way businesses roll out their capital, to the point where the drone dollar stretches in North Dakota more than it does in other states. You can see that as well in the new legislation that’s coming out, so House Bill 1038 introduced by Representative Nathy is an earth-shaker. 

It’s another example of what you see and what makes this the answer to the question: how the heck are they doing this in North Dakota? Not just the same reasons why we have the UND School for manned aircraft or uncrewed aircraft, but because of this foresight. 

I see Vantis as a model to expand to other states and internationally, to what Ryan mentioned. Another thing we can export is legislative leadership. If other states see this monumental drone bill, it’s another reason you can see the symbolic leadership of North Dakota when it comes to UAS. 

It’s funny when I get that question. I always have to smile and look at my watch and ask, how much time do you have? 

Otherwise, in general, another reason why you can see that we’ve got it going on in North Dakota is because of the success and the advent of the North Dakota UAS Council. 

Erin Roesler: I definitely agree with all of that. In fact, the only part I’d add, because I already talked about the people of North Dakota, is that as a citizen of North Dakota, what I applaud is not only entities like the Council or the legislature, but also the businesses and UAS businesses that are here being proactive in this approach. 

You mentioned House Bill 1038 and the drone buyback bill, and other states have proposed similar legislation. The difference with 1038 is that it doesn’t have a stick. There’s no ban. 

At the state level, it recognizes that there’s a ban likely coming out at the federal level, and that will impact so many state agencies and inhibit their ability to do their public service missions. So how can North Dakota look at what’s coming at the federal level and get ahead of that to ensure that the citizens in North Dakota don’t see any disruption in quality of life and the value they’re getting out of UAS? 

That bill is a proactive approach to allocate funding to support the buying back of drones and replacing them with alternative products, NDAA-compliant products. But that is just one example of that proactive nature. 

The people are the ones with that proactive approach, that hardworking work ethic, seeing all these new challenges and new barriers coming and continually trying to find ways to overcome them. I always describe myself, and most North Dakotans this way, as hopeless optimists — not hopeless romantics, but hopeless optimists. There’s always a way to find a solution. There’s always a way to overcome whatever challenge is in front of us. 

At times that means we’re rolling up our sleeves and getting work done, and I really think that not only embodies the state of North Dakota but really embodies the North Dakota UAS ecosystem culture and mentality as well. 

Matt Dunlevy: Absolutely. The fact that we got out in front of an industry that we saw was coming is in the same vein as being proactive and getting ahead of potential federal legislation so that we protect what we’ve got and make sure we’re out ahead of any potential bans or whatever so there are no interruptions in what we’ve got going on. We cannot slow down this groove we’re in as a North Dakota UAS cluster. 

Erin Roesler: Awesome. Well, Matt, thank you for your time today. I really appreciate you joining us today on Beyond the Buzz. Again, a reminder for our audience that we hold these monthly on a whole variety of topics from the perspective of the Northern Plains UAS Test Site. 

We’ll be back here again next month, so please join us. And again, thank you once again for joining Beyond the Buzz.